Directly taken from Mike Hampton on Substack:
Tucker Carlson monologue: As the war in Ukraine completely reshuffles the world order, and threatens to destroy human civilisation, it's striking how little information Americans are receiving about what happens there. The nation of Hungary shares a border with Ukraine. Its leader, Viktor Orbán, the nation's longest-serving Prime Minister, has been dealing with the Russians all his life. He grew up under Russian occupation. As a young man, he was harassed and thrown into jail by Russian-backed police, first efforts to liberate the country. As Prime Minister he's dealt regularly with Vladimir Putin whose nation supplies Hungary with most of its energy. Viktor Orbán understands Russia and Ukraine. So 2 years after we last spoke to him, we returned to Hungary, and sat down with Prime Minister Viktor Orbán, and asked him what exactly happening in Ukraine right now. This is what he said...
Carlson: So, in the United States, the view is that Ukraine is winning this war. Doesn't sound like that's true?
Orbán: It's a lie. It's not a misunderstanding. It's a lie. It's impossible. Everybody who is in politics and understand the logic, the figures, the data - no way.
Carlson: Why's it impossible?
Orbán: Ukrainians die everyday, hundreds of thousands - my heart is with them. It's tragedy. It's tragedy for Ukraine. They run out earlier of the soldiers than the Russians. What finally will count is boots on the ground. And the Russians are far stronger. More numbers.
Carlson: Many more.
Orbán: So this strategy what we are supporting is bad engineering.
Carlson: So if the Biden administration has said our goal is to beat Russia, to affect regime change, to kill Putin, and take him out of power-
Orbán: They misunderstood Russia. To understand Russians is a difficult thing, especially if you have an ocean between you and Russia. So when we speak about politics, by that I mean Westerners, what is the focus point of our conversation? The focus point is freedom. How to provide more and more freedom to the People. When you speak on politics in Russia, this is not the number one issue. The number one issue is how to keep together the country because the country's very big. Freedom is just another issue - second, third, whatever. First keep the country together, and that's generated a different culture and understanding of politics. That's created a kind of military approach. Always on security, safety, a buffer zone - a geopolitical approach. It's not our culture. It's a different approach. It's legimate to have that because its their history. We have to understand that we cannot beat them as we're doing just now. It's impossible. They will not kill their leader. They will never give it up. They will keep together the country, they will defend it. If we [unintelligible], they will invest more. If we send more technical equiment, they will produce more. Don't misunderstand the Russians.
Carlson: So they're not going to get sick of Putin and throw him out?
Orbán: C'mon. it's a joke.
Carlson: What would happen if the West succeeded in killing Putin? What would happen to Russia and its nuclear stockpiles?
Orbán: May I share one of my experiences?
Carlson: Yeah.
Orbán: I was Prime Minister, exactly at the time when the change happened in Russia. Putin after Yeltsin. Yeltsin was very weak, and getting weaker and weaker. And I do remember the fear of that time, here in Hungary, and in Europe as well, whether there will be new leadership or not. The real fear here is if there will be anarchy in Russia - Putin [he meant Yeltsin] is out and no new guy was coming in who was strong enough to keep together the country; the nuclear arsenal, the army control and so on. Everybody was happy after he realised and had seen Putin come in, and started to control the military and Russian power, as a leader. Everybody was happy. I do remember that. Now Putin is in power for long, long years. We forgot about how dangerous it is when there's no strong leadership or interregnum in Russia. Interegnum is the worst case possible.
Carlson: But that is our goal, the goal of the US State Department.
Orbán: But it is a mistake. If it is the goal, it is a mistake.
Carlson: It sounds very dangerous.
Orbán: It's more than dangerous. To sit in Washington, safe in United States, is a different feeling than sitting here in Budapest, Ukraine's next door country. What's going on there could have an immediate impact, in 24 hours, here. When I was very young, '86, if I remember well, there was the explosion of the nuclear power station in Ukraine, by accident. And it affected us immediately. So if there is an escalation in Ukraine, that could have an impact on us immediately. Washing is far away. Russia and Ukraine is close. That's the Hungarian approach.
Carlson: So given the manpower imbalance between the Russian and Ukrainian armies, and the attrition of the Ukrainian army, hundreds of thousands dead-
Orbán: Many Hungarians as well. Nobody knows it. But we have a minority, a strong minority, more than 150,000 people, in the territory of Ukraine, which was earlier part of Hungary. It's a historical community living there. They are part of the Ukrainian state, and they are now conscripted to the army. They die, they fight for Ukraine, Hungarian soldiers dying for Ukraine as Ukrainian citizens. We, the Hungarian nation, are losing lives daily.
Carlson: At a certain point they're going to need more men, more soldiers, where they're going to come from?
Orbán: That's the most risky question. If any Western country sends boots on the ground, that would mean a direct war between the West and Russia, and we are in a Third World War, immediately. It's a very dangerous moment now.
Carlson: That's obvious to you?
Orbán: Absolutely. Not [only] for me, everybody on the street, ordinary citizens are aware that we are living in a very dangerous moment. So the Third World War could be knocking on our door, so we have to be very, very careful. And that's my message, always, to America at NATO Summit: Be careful with that.
Carlson: And what kind of response do you get when you say that?
Orbán: They are bigger, therefore they add more colour, that's always the case.
Carlson [laughing]: So they don't listen to you?
Orbán: You can say in that way, also.
Carlson: I have to ask you about Nordstream. It seems very obvious that the Biden administration blew up Nordstream, either directly or through proxies. I haven't heard anyone dispute that, really. How is Western Europe, Germany in particular (the biggest NATO member in Europe), not say anything about this? It just crushed the German economy. Why don't they say a word about it?
Orbán: When it is happened, we recommended it as a terrorist attack. It was rejected in Germany and the West. It was not a terrorist attack, it was... SOMETHING [both laugh]. It's kind of evidence of lack of sovereignty. But it's the job of the Germans, I would not like to criticise them. What we Hungarians did immediately, we made clear there is another pipeline, not just Nordic stream but a Southern stream, coming from Russia through the Southern corridor - Turkey, Bulgaria, Serbia, Hungary - and, together with the Serbian Prime Minister, err, President, we made it clear that if anybody would like to do the same with the Southern corridor as was done with the Northern one, we consider it as a reason for war, a terrorist attack, we will immediately react. So don't do that. Probably you can do it to the Germans, but you can't with this region.
Carlson: You think people understand that?
Orbán: I think so.
Carlson: You were not speaking to the Russians when you said that?
Orbán It's a Hungarian issue, not a Russian issue.
Carlson laughs: When you said, to the World, don't commit an act of terror against this pipeline, you weren't-
Orbán: It was not addressed to Moscow. No-
Carlson: No, it was not... So if you were in charge of NATO, or say [if you were] Joe Biden, what would your next move be in the war in Ukraine? What would you do?
Orbán: Peace - immediately. Call back Trump. That's the only way out.
Carlson: Call back Trump?
Orbán: Call back Trump. because, you know... you can criticise him for many reasons, I understand all the discussions... but the best foreign policies, for several recent decades, belonged to him. He did not initiate any new war. He treated, nicely, the North Koreans and Russia, even the Chinese. He delivered the policy which was the best one, [inaudible], you know the Abraham Accords, so that was a very good foreign policy. he's criticised that he's not educated enough to understand the world, but this is not the case. Facts count, and his foreign policy was the best one for the world. In the last several decades I hace seen. And if he would have been the President, at the moment of the Russian invasion, at the start, it would not have been possible to do that by the Russians. So Trump is the man who can save the Western world, probably the human beings in the world as well. That's my personal conviction.
Carlson: Can I ask you just to skip around, just for one second, about the Russian invasion of Ukraine? Days before that, at the Munich Security Conference, the Vice President of the United States, Kamala Harris, said to Zelensky, at a press briefing, we would like Ukraine to join NATO. Now Ukraine joining NATO, obviously cannot, you know-
Orbán: It's a long story. When the idea of membership, Ukraine-NATO, was raised, it was in the Summit of NATO Bucharest, 2007 or 8. Russia was not strong enough to stop it. So that was a real chance at the time, to integrate the Ukrainians into NATO. But it was rejected, there was no big agreement among the Western countries to do so, so it was postponed. But after 2 or 3 years later, the Russians became stronger and stronger and stronger. And now they are even stronger. So we missed the historical opportunity to do so. And this window of opportunity is not open anymore. So we can't do that. So we can't afford to have that long a border line between Russia and Ukraine that belongs to NATO. That would mean immediate war danger to all of us. Even in Washington. So its even a danger for the United States. Quite a danger for the region but even for you, for the the family-
Carlson: Cause it could provoke a nuclear w-
Orbán: Ja. It's not a realistic proposal at this moment so forget about it. We should say just the opposite. We should make a deal with the Russians on the new security architecture to provide security/sovereignty for Ukraine but not membership in NATO.
Carlson: I think your view is shared by many sober people who watch this, so why would the Vice President say something like that, the moment when their were Russian troops massed on the Ukrainian border.
Orbán: You know, it's difficult to follow the mindset of a big power, like you are. It's a different approach to everything, than the approach of the 10 million people of Hungary with a historical experience, knowing the Russians better than you know. You always think that you know better because of the Cold War, but it's not the case. You should ask us how does it work, what is the way of thinking, what is the cultural context.
Carlson: So back to the peace. If you were in charge, or if Trump were to win in 2024, how would you approach that, what would it look like, the settlement?
Orbán: First you should admit, probably, publicly acknowledging, that the keys in your hand. If the United States would like to have peace, the next morning there is peace, because it obvious that the poor Ukrainians are not competitive in this war. If there is no money, and no equipment from the West, especially the United States, the war is over.
Carlson: Yes.
Orbán: The solution is in your hands, in the hands of your President. The President or the future one. You will solve it. The United States can do it. Nobody else can. It's not the solution for the Ukrainians. Of course it's about the Ukrainians, they must be involved... but ther real factor is not Ukraine but the intention of the United States.
Carlson: Yes. So policy maker sin the United States have been talking recently about taking Crimea, including the Russian port, away from the Russians. Is it a realistic goal, and what would happen if we tried?
Orbán: It's totally unrealistic. No way.
Carlson: That's not a wise-
Orbán: It's not wise. It's not realistic. It's out of question.
Carlson: Last night, we stood here, and you had fireworks over the city to celebrate the founding of the city of this nation, and you had about 10% of your entire population standing outside, cheering, and they all seemed to be happy to be Hungarian. How do you get a country to be grateful it's Hungarian.
Orbán: It's an ancient nation, first. The country was established 1100 years ago. We are a historical nation, using the same language. Nobody speaks the the same language around us - Germans and Slavics, no Hungarians. Therefore, ot maintain the language, to maintain the culture for this country, is a big achievement by itself. So we celebrate it, even yesterday, that we did it for more than 1000 years, that we are still Hungarians. And to be Hungarians, we are very proud of it. We love the nation, we love the country, and we are proud of it. It's not very much mainstream thinking, politically thinking of today's Western societies, but in Hungary we are still very patriotic, and Christian, and committed to those values. Not in an ideological level, but on the streets every day.
Carlson: Do you think that's why you are so unpopular among leadership in the United States and the West?
Orbán: I'm not the favourite politician of the liberals, unfortuantely, but nobody's perfect, you know.
[they share the laugh]
Carlson: Why do you think that is?
[Orbán sighs deeply]
Carlson continues: The country is thriving, that's usually the measure we use.
Orbán: It's more about our civilisation, I mean the Western Christian civilisation. Now, the main division line is not according to ideologies. It's deeper. It has an anthropological character. So, on one side, in Europe and probably in your country, but in Europe definitely, there are groups of people who think that the most important thing in the world is their ego - themselves, me, this is the centre of the world. The other camp of the people, the other part of society, thinks that's not true because there are certain things which are more important than me and my ego - family, nation, God. And because they are more important than me, I have to serve these higher level things. This society has a majority here in Hungary. And the other society, which is concentrating only on me, only dealing with myself, it's more Westernised, dominating factor of political life. And the governments of the West, more belonging to the first group of people. I belong to the second one, and Hungary belongs to the second one. Our Constitution is concentrating on the We, how we are linked together - family, nation, God, what is common. We the Hungarian nation, that's how we speak on that. It's totally out of fashion in the Western European society.
Carlson: But why would that be so provocative to certain people in the West. I mean, different countries have different traditions. Mongolia has its own religion, language... but that's not offensive, but something about what you said is very offensive?
Orbán: Because in Western society, politics very often led by intellectuals, and intellectuals like to be ideologists, a special approach from the ideological point of view. And ideology is a very difficult thing because it has an exclusivity. So when a liberal decides this is the interpretation of society, it means it's the only way to interpret society. If you do a different way, you cannot be a good man. We have another interpretation. We have a Christian, national and more traditional interpretation of human beings and society, but they can't accept it because it's different. So we are plural. They are hegemonistic. That's the problem.
Carlson: So the intolerance is baked in, it's part of-
Orbán: It's coming from-
Carlson: -the ideology.
Orbán: Liberal ideology, basically. You know, liberal originally meant freedom, but now in Europe, liberal means that you're the enemy of freedom. Because you're a hegemonistic request on society, on values and the concept of human being, as well. So liberals are against freedom, that's how we see that.
Carlson: I've noticed. I don't live in Hungary, I can't assess it, I can assess your Media landscape which is much freer than ours. Much freer. Much more diversity.
Orbán: I have to fight every day [chuckles].
Carlson: The people in our country don't. Virtually every Media outlet is on their side, reflexively, and yet they describe you, in the United States, in the Media, as fascist. And the Biden administration seems to believe it, the State Department, anyway. The US is the biggest, most powerful country in the world. Are you worried about being crushed by the United States?
Orbán: It's dangerous, may I say. We should not neglect the importance of that factor. When the United States administration does not like you, or considers you as an enemy, or having a back track, it's dangeous in international politics. So you are powerful, still number 1 power in the world, so if you criticise somebody, we have to be very cautious how to deal with that. And now the Democratic administration does it regularly. So we have to be clear, here, that this not the voice of America, it's the voice of the administration of the United States. Not all Americans have the same approach as the Government. Like the Republicans are far closer on the values basis to us, the previous President is friend of Hungary on the values basis, historically and wholeheartedly, so a real friend. So don't make the mistake a mistake to consider the United States equal to the United States administration.
Carlson: Yes.
Orbán: That difference is important. You have competition, a political system based on competition.
Carlson: Of course.
Orbán: And hopefully Trump will come back, so the Republicans will come back, and the relationship will again be very good. But now it's absurd. Can you imagine, the United States deleted the agreement between Hungary and the United States on double taxation, but they still have the agreement between Russia and the United States.
Carlson: That means that American citizens, for those who don't know what this is, American citizens who live and work in Hungary, pay Hungarian taxes to your government, but also full federal taxes to the United States.
Orbán: But the attitude, as such, we are a member of NATO, we are ally to the United States, and we are worse treated than the Russians. What's that about?
Carlson: What is it about? It's what you just said. It might be helpful to say it out loud. The Biden administration spent U.S. tax dollars to campaign against you in in your last election. They didn't succeed, you won, in a fair election.
Orbán: Big money.
Carlson: Big money... I don't think most Americans understand where their tax dollars went, to [try] defeat you in Hungary.
Orbán: Exactly.
Carlson: But if you respect democracy, don't you let countries govern themselves?
Orbán: It's definitely against all the principles, we confess.
[both laugh]
Carlson: Are you worried about American control over Hungarian debt? Are you worried that the Biden administration could, potentially, hurt Hungary economically.
[Orbán shakes his head, no]
Carlson: No.
Orbán: 10 years ago, probably. That could have been the case, but today we are strong enough. No, no. It's not easy. It's far easier to cooperate with the United States government, it's far nicer horizon to have a good relationship, but even without that we can stand, we can survive, we can grow, even grow.
Carlson: So, in the American Media you have been dismissed as a puppet of Russia, a friend of Putin's... I want to put a picture on the screen of you being arrested by Soviet-backed police, as a young man. This country was occupied by the Soviets, the Russians, for 40 years...
Carlson: ..so, given that, are you a bootlicker of Putin, are you a puppet of Putin? What's your view.
Orbán: When I first time met him, come back as Prime Minister, we said very clearly, don't touch upon history, because the history between Russia and Hungary is rather sad. One of the main heroic attempts of the Hungarian nation to get freedom, was launched against the Habsburgok, in the middle of the 19th century, crushed by the army of the Tsar of Russia. They had the Austrians, because we were in the winning position. The Russians were invited by the Habsburgok and they crushed the freedom fight here in Hungary. Then they occupied us in the Second World War. And when we tried to get out from their yoke in '56, they crushed us again. History is, if you know... if you ask anybody on the street, that any Hungarian leader who is elected freely can be a puppet of Putin or the Russians, they say it's a joke, impossible, because we are a sovereign country. Even to the Russians, we deliver many times that we are soverign. So I don't take seriously that kind of accusation. But, of course, I try to have a rational relationship with the Russians, especially on the economy and energy. And my personal point is, that without involving the Russians into the security architecture of Europe, we cannot provide safe lives to the citizens of Europe. But now everything is going against it, unfortunately.
Carlson: Well, Russia is hardly integrated into the security architecture of Europe. NATO is at war with Russia.
Orbán: What NATO does is rather strange. If you look at the official position of NATO, as an institution, as an alliance, they're exactly saying what we said, so no involvement, and to do as much as we can for peace. That's the official position of NATO. But at the same time, NATO says that the member states of NATO should do their best to support the Ukrainians. We should clarify what's going on, like the United States foreign policy to support Ukrainians, it's not the policy of NATO, it's the policy of the United States. That's a big difference.
Carlson: But, I mean, NATO countries now, border over 1500 miles of Russia. So it seems like the point, if you take a step back, NATO is to provoke war with Russsia. That's what it seems like. What is the point of NATO?
Orbán: The point of NATO is that we are stronger than the Russians are. That's very important, to make clear. There's the nuclear armament which must be balanced but, in conventional weapon context, we, NATO, are far further than the Russians are. The Russians are not strong enough even to beat the Ukrainians. Therefore, if somebody is belonging to NATO, it's obvious we are in a secular position. Russia is not able to strike our security, out of question, because we are so strong. That's the number 1 point. The second is that some leaders of NATO, some member state leaders like your President, they had a strategy to crush the Russians somehow, and the strategy was that the Ukrainian soldiers will fight and some member states of NATO will finance this fight, by money and military technical equipment. And this can be the way to beat the Russians. We, Hungarians, said clear at the very beginning, at the very first point, that this strategy will never work. It's a bad strategy. And now we have one and a half year of the war, and it's obvious it's a bad strategy. We have to stop it. We need a new strategy, or we should run, as soon as we can, for peace.
Carlson: Let me ask you one last question about Trump since you brought him up a couple of times. You were just in an election that I know your staff were worried you might lose. There was an open question. You won, pretty sizeably. But it was a real election. Did you consider, at any point, just indicting your challenger on fake documents and charges, and trying to throw him in jail. Wouldn't that have been easier?
Orbán: You mean against me?
Carlson: Yeah.
Orbán: Okay, we have some bad chapters of our history, but that kind of civilian war, cold civilian war, was not part of our culture. So we can beat each other, argue against each other, but to do what's going on now in, in some countries and even your country, to use the justice system against political opponents, in Hungary, I think it's impossible to imagine. You know, that was done by the Communists. It's a very Communist methology to do that. So, in Hungary, we are all aware that we disagree on things - ideology, values, vision of the future, even practices of politics - but we belong to the same nation. We have rivalry but what is the final sense of this argument and competition? To unite the nation, yeah? To provide a better future. I can't say that I will kill you or send you to the prison. If you follow that track, no chance to unify the nation. If the nation's not unified, you can't run for big purposes. So competition is okay but it must be fair, legally perfect, otherwise you can sacrifice your country, and the future of your country, for your personal success, which is not acceptable, at least it's not in Hungary.
Carlson: Mr Prime Minister, thank you very much.
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